I am excited to announce ASe's very first official debate topic!
Should young graduates from foreign schools go back to Mongolia or stay and pursue their personal aspirations?
Some are better off going back to friends and family, and be the master of their domain. Others might prefer to take advantage of abundant opportunities in foreign country and eventually settle there. What are you views?
Best answer from both sides will receive surprise rewards
Rules:
1. Minimum 200 words, any less will be thrown out
2. While not overly strict about grammar, do your best to express yourself clearly
3. Write from your own perspective not what others should do
4. Only one post per member, so make it count
5. Follow-up might be allowed if worth discussing
At first, i must say Mongolia isn't a place that people would wish very much to live these days. From my point of view, the government is only about two major parties that are trying only to take advantage over each other and overuse their privilage for their own needs. It's one of the reasons some people migrate out to other countries such as America. About america, it is an enormous culture obscurely attracts people from all over the globe because of its flexible society and people-centered government. In my opinion, culture is a critical fact of being a captivating country. As i red from Brzezinsky's The Grand Chessboard, Ancient Rome was the classic example of my previous sentence. The idea of ancient Rome's monopoly in europe was that the Rome itself was the empire with the strongest culture in europe neighboring only barbarians from the north. Opposing that, ancient Mongols could occupy the half of the world, but due to the absence of cultural elegance, the Mongols somewhat started to acquiesce the huge cultures they have occupied such as China and Arabic empires. Why am I talking about all these history? My point to the debate title is that if one has such patriotic attitute and wishes to go for their country's future they would choose to go back and be the part of Mongolia's hope. If a person wills only to make his/her life better, ofcourse, they would prefer to stay. Some may stay seeking an opportunity to start their own business. I think i would belong to the third group. These are only my opinion, and since it's a debate i would be deeply appreciated if you add corrections.
Romans adopted the cultures of those that came before it, the Greeks, Pheonicians and Carthaginians - then claimed it as their own. They were successful in governance due to being both skilled on the battlefield as well as politics. The Europeans adopted this method of political warfare during the colonial era.
If Mongols have been like the West, genociding, discriminating, ethnociding, revising foreign educational resources for our benefit, and use that to claim other culture's achievements as our own, promote homogenous marriages instead of *&^@%%#% anything with a heartbeat, then we may not be in this state today.
Subuatai написал:Romans adopted the cultures of those that came before it, the Greeks, Pheonicians and Carthaginians - then claimed it as their own. They were successful in governance due to being both skilled on the battlefield as well as politics. The Europeans adopted this method of political warfare during the colonial era.
If Mongols have been like the West, genociding, discriminating, ethnociding, revising foreign educational resources for our benefit, and use that to claim other culture's achievements as our own, promote homogenous marriages instead of *&^@%%#% anything with a heartbeat, then we may not be in this state today.
i thought the subject was "stay or go back", but nice say
Heh sorry to go off-topic, but I'm quite critical when it comes to history :)
On topic however, Mongol nations are developing countries/states, our people have a duty to preserve our cultural and racial heritage. Mongol is too legendary an ethnicity to fade away to extinction. Australia may be my home where I was born and raised in, but it's not home. Their so-called values of 'multiculturalism' and 'non-racialism' is a f--king joke. I was once proud to call myself a "Mongstralian", but not anymore. The chant "Aussie Aussie Aussie" is just propaganda, nothing else. Reality of Australian culture is sickening.
Me, my future wife with my child plan to emigrate from Australia and either move to Mongolia or Kalmykia. I've lived in a western country all my life, sure the lifestyle is easier, the education cheaper, but culture? It is simply pathetic. This land belongs to the native Aboriginals, not the Anglo genocidists. Just as I do not call New Zealand "New Zealand", the land is called Aotearoa - the Maori name. I correct everyone when they use the "New Zealand" term, the Maoris are the real owners of the land.
Now I know I may not reach out to Mongolians studying or working overseas, but my hope is that fellow Mongols worldwide remember who the hell we are, what it is in our culture that we must preserve not just for ourselves, but for the sake of combating "civilised" hypocrisy. As for an easier life, just take note here is one Mongol, wishing to leave an easier life to be amongst my own people, to raise my child as a Mongol. Westerners are like McDonalds - their food tastes like sh*t, but they advertise well through their marketing.
Be proud, be strong, be mindful, be wise, whatever your decision.
We came here after facing all the difficulties, we have stayed here regardless of all the problems. We left our country with wish to be more wise more powerful or more rich. Before anyone try to lie here, before you leave Home, I know your ideas for Mongolia and love for her was great. You wished to be the change that this country needed. You wished for greater knowledge, greater position, greater wish. After long school years, after hearing all the fucked up news about Mongolia. We wished to not get involved. It is true, it's not something anyone would like to get involved. Mongolia, she needs us. Country is cruised by its intellectual class, not by its poor majorities. But now, not all but most of the young intellects of the next generations are not Home. Those who were suppose to be starting new things, those who were suppose to be expecting to help to control, and develop this country are missing. (I'm trying not to sound like nationalist, because lately I'm not. Nationalism is just one way to wash your brain.)
Mongolia is still very poor, still very weak, only thing that is strong in our mind is her history, her legacy of uniting half the world under one roof. You might wish to be great, be rich or be powerful. You think there's isn't very good chances in Mongolia to be that. You think life is safer and easier here. You're thinking freaking wrong! How do you call it safe when you live in number one country terrorist hate. How do you feel safe when so called gangster and killers live just on the other side of the city. How do call it easier when everything you do is bounded by your nationality, your residency, your visa type. How do call it easier when, just to get a normal job at regular company you have to go through many many steps just the be considered possible employee. How is it easy to hide your status and live life wiping another guys *ss, or cleaning dirty table and act like you care what customers would order when you have a Bachelors diploma in your pocket.
You can be rich in Mongolia, I don't think I have to give examples. You'd think, I have to mess with dirty politics to get rich but you don't. You are the next generation, you can be that change to stop the bullcrap filled way of getting things done. You can be great only when you think you can. Being somebody in small Mongolia might not mean a thing to you. If then I challenge you, to be great and scream your name to be heard around the earth, from your Home.
There's no perfect society, and Mongolia is not even close to that. Don't be afraid of things that you haven't seen. I don't know how to achieve any of this. But I don't doubt all this can be achieved when you have the will and idea for it.
As the old man Einstein said, “If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.” Whichever path you choose, we wish you luck!
might be bit long, hope it makes up my mind, cuz my laziness kicked in at the end.
It is obvious. Mongols will always go live abroad as long as their lives are better off. The advantages for living in developed countries lies on increased salary, better safety, high quality education, and secured property rights. On the other hand, disadvantages are certain degree of alianation, problems with adopting to a different culture, and loss of friends & family... bla bla bla... this sh*t is useless... what are you trying to accomplish???
however what needs to be adressed is that where should Mongolia be heading and how do we as young intellectuals fit in this...
I believe Mongolia needs good economic institutional reforms like Washington Consensus. Securing property rights is the most basic and the most essential thing that Mongolian government should be doing. Obviously, this has been unsuccessful. Then privitization of the grazelands for people namely herders is very important if we don't want to live in a deserted land. Any simple economist recognizes the tragedy that falls from common properties. The concept of tragedy of the commons apply to the Mongolian context directly as any nomadic herder has an access to free grazeland and they bear the incentive to graze as many animals as they can. This results overgrazing thus destruction of the most fertile land that hold off the immense desertification movement. Majority of the Mongolian landscapes are turning to deserts rapidly. Yet no Mongolian person address this problem but only foreign researchers. Destruction of arable land means total dependancy on food from other sources namely China.
Moreover, Mongolian government needs to terminate the bureaucracies aka paper works that people have to do when starting small businesses. It takes a lot of waiting time, paper work, and bribes to start the even simplest business. Keeping a discouraging inhibition as such is a backward step from prosperity.
And there are so much more issues to address...
Now back to the question... Should we go back?
If not then who is going to do all this? It is almost obvious that the previous generation can't accomplish all this as most of them possess the socialist mentality. Symptoms of Communist is still apparent. Then it lies on us... Us intellectuals... economic reformists and so on.
But I also agree that i might have came out with too much enthusiasm. Note this however, even with an adequate university degree in a developing country it is still really hard to be in the top echelon as these societies formed into a crystal like structure that demotes advencement. The American dream??? the American dream is almost impossible for foreigners in America.
What if you go back??? When you have the adequate education which most of the Mongols never had the chance to get, you advance! you shape the future! You are part of the change... So go back and YES WE CAN!
As much as I support educated and economical Mongols returning to Mongolia. I admit that with my daughter on the way my previous plan of migrating to Mongolia is out of the question due to the sinophobic racial climate, not just by Bayasal or Sonin who were once friends. As a result, I am unable to lead by example in this regard.
Truth is however, Mongolia needs to build her economy, others who can live abroad yet work to preserve Mongol culture and/or build her economy by establishing businesses in foreign lands is also acceptable in my humble opinion. Let's look at one other successful race;
The Jews are a geographically dispersed group, but they are very successful as a minority in the world. Jews were discriminated against, genocided against, yet through their struggles they won the world's sympathy, respect and gained huge influence. They are our model my brothers and sisters. Whether you choose to go back to Mongolia or stay in a foreign country to establish yourself, just remember who you are, and make sure, just like the Jews, make sure they too remember their origin and culture.
Subuatai написал:As much as I support educated and economical Mongols returning to Mongolia. I admit that with my daughter on the way my previous plan of migrating to Mongolia is out of the question due to the sinophobic racial climate, not just by Bayasal or Sonin who were once friends. As a result, I am unable to lead by example in this regard.
Truth is however, Mongolia needs to build her economy, others who can live abroad yet work to preserve Mongol culture and/or build her economy by establishing businesses in foreign lands is also acceptable in my humble opinion. Let's look at one other successful race;
The Jews are a geographically dispersed group, but they are very successful as a minority in the world. Jews were discriminated against, genocided against, yet through their struggles they won the world's sympathy, respect and gained huge influence. They are our model my brothers and sisters. Whether you choose to go back to Mongolia or stay in a foreign country to establish yourself, just remember who you are, and make sure, just like the Jews, make sure they too remember their origin and culture.
but the Jews and Mongols are so different.
- First the population difference.
When you think of the ratios: the Jew poplation to world population during the time when the Jews were kicked out of their land and the modern Mongol population to modern world population. These ratios differ so much! Jews were able to maintain their numbers but Mongols would not be able to.
Simply put, when Jews travel around they could always find fellow Jews but not the same with Mongols. The Mongol gene will die out if we don't stick together.
-second, Jews have a strong sense of community whereas the Mongols try to avoid each other when they are living abroad. So many factors unite the Jews. So many factors seperate the Mongols. A whole different story when it comes to keeping the community alive... JEWS help each other out but Mongols destroy each other...
It would be very unreasonable to say that Mongols can repeat what Jews could.
We don't really have any other choice but to emulate the Jews. I said we should be like the Jews, not that we already are. Problem with us is like you said - no sense of unity, too much individualism.
Subuatai написал:We don't really have any other choice but to emulate the Jews. I said we should be like the Jews, not that we already are. Problem with us is like you said - no sense of unity, too much individualism.
and how are we going to do that??? you don't really see that we are outnumbered, do you?... but jews were not. it is really hard for the Mongols who are living abroad to find another Mongol that suits. Even if one finds a mate, their babies turn into something completely different. example, john baasandorj goes to kindergarden and learns english instead of Mongolian. John Baasandorj is eating Mc.Donalds not buuz. John Baasandorj falls in love with a blonde not a mgl chick. John Baasandorj is sick of their parents trying to force Mongolian culture on him. John baasandorj hangs out with mostly white kids since there is no Mongol around. John Baasandorj only has a vague idea about Mongolia. John Baasandorj would never want to go to Mongolia because he heard that Mongolia is voilent and also he has no friends there. John Baasandorj never get to fully experience what Mongol babies do in mglia.
easier solution would be convince people to go back. Fix the economic and social constraints and spread the message of hope...
Environment may have a huge impact on a child's upbringing but it is not always negative;
You know I was born and raised in Australia, either then family there was no Mongols around. Sure I started to hang out with Aussies and grew up with them, but I never forgot who the hell I was. My parents never forced Mongol culture on me, my father only guided me through. It wasn't until that I did my own studies into our culture and history that I decided we really have something worth fighting for.
Sure I may have not learnt Kalmyk Mongol since my father's own linguistic capabilities are mediocre, but I'm still here, trying to keep contact with my own kind since I've been a minority all my life. I used to call myself a "Mongol Australian" or "Mongstralian", but now I just call myself "Mongol living in Australia". I've successfully reversed all the western bullsh-t drilled into me to assimilate me as an Australian. It's not just me either, my family are minorities wherever they are, we dispersed since the Kalmyk deportations in 1943, but this only makes us fight harder for survival.
However just like Baasandorj I also fell in love with a foreign girl - a half Norse/half Sino girl - which many can't seem to stand. It's nothing to do with preference, if I had a choice I would take a gorgeous Mongol girl anyday, but there are NONE! Seriously, me and a Naiman brother were always complaining in the past of the difficulties trying to find a Mongol girl, and we don't want to just wave our Visas around just to pick up. Now I'm taken with a foreign girl, but even if we wanted to move to Mongolia, my child won't be accepted. Priority is our daughter and how she is raised.
In Australia we can raise our child as Mongol without other Mongols condemning her for being 1/4 Chinese. Ironic isn't it?
Subuatai, honestly speaking, I think you're little overestimating the racial prejudice of current Mongols. Your girl WON'T be discriminated, quite the contrary. What matters is what she considers herself to be. Don't listen to Bayasal or any other high pitched hate mongering. The situation is different in a good way. Nobody really cares, even if they did they won't do nothing.
Subuatai написал:Environment may have a huge impact on a child's upbringing but it is not always negative;
You know I was born and raised in Australia, either then family there was no Mongols around. Sure I started to hang out with Aussies and grew up with them, but I never forgot who the hell I was. My parents never forced Mongol culture on me, my father only guided me through. It wasn't until that I did my own studies into our culture and history that I decided we really have something worth fighting for.
Sure I may have not learnt Kalmyk Mongol since my father's own linguistic capabilities are mediocre, but I'm still here, trying to keep contact with my own kind since I've been a minority all my life. I used to call myself a "Mongol Australian" or "Mongstralian", but now I just call myself "Mongol living in Australia". I've successfully reversed all the western bullsh-t drilled into me to assimilate me as an Australian. It's not just me either, my family are minorities wherever they are, we dispersed since the Kalmyk deportations in 1943, but this only makes us fight harder for survival.
However just like Baasandorj I also fell in love with a foreign girl - a half Norse/half Sino girl - which many can't seem to stand. It's nothing to do with preference, if I had a choice I would take a gorgeous Mongol girl anyday, but there are NONE! Seriously, me and a Naiman brother were always complaining in the past of the difficulties trying to find a Mongol girl, and we don't want to just wave our Visas around just to pick up. Now I'm taken with a foreign girl, but even if we wanted to move to Mongolia, my child won't be accepted. Priority is our daughter and how she is raised.
In Australia we can raise our child as Mongol without other Mongols condemning her for being 1/4 Chinese. Ironic isn't it?
but doesn't your story prove my point?
it is hard ain't it? that is why going back should be the option...
eventhough we know the fact that problems will arise when we go back...
It’s true that my English is garbage ok? just I wanted to share my thoughts informally which I have same debating to myself.
When it comes to the decision about leaving or staying. It decides our way ahead. Everything depends on where we live and how we hold on. And we don’t have to think about gf or bf stuffs here (just mentioning it’s not important at all, if you don’t have one then don’t get one.)
Today most of Mongolian young people tend to study abroad, but half of them probably turns out to be laborers in foreign country. Actually it’s not exactly what they wanted from the start. Then several of them go back to Mongolia with not having cosiderable knowledge. It’s obvious that what will happen next; growth of unemployment.
On the other hand there are many good buddies who acquire the best education and coming back with full of energy to work for Mongolia “republic”, but in most of the cases it’s not always same with what they studied, and they begin to bore, then thinking about going back to the country they prepared to work. But I’m sure that half of them are available to entertain their selves, so that they can stay as long as they can in Mongolia.
To tell you the truth, (without mentioning about family and friends thing here) studying abroad, taking good education afterwards returning to the motherland and actualize things they learnt those sound pretty lame. But I won’t gainsay there were good guys who realized this example but in the time of socialism or what. And we left behind several damned years, today is 2009 and I don’t even know what damned parliament is going to do if one day anonymous wizard pop up and say: -you have had it, you should stop now, or I’m gonna exploit you country, at least they won’t feel slightest guilt until something like that happens, lol.
All in all, I just want to say good luck for everybody who study abroad and giving good honor to our land Mongolia. ‘cause I know Mongolian people have better brain and smarter than any other people of nationality. No matter how few population we have no matter how life happening in our land, we have our independent country Mongolia, she is not colonial, she has its own language Mongolian, she has too many grandeur which I can’t never finish list them. So all we can do is being the best in everywhere we go.
enka написал:
but doesn't your story prove my point?
it is hard ain't it? that is why going back should be the option...
eventhough we know the fact that problems will arise when we go back...
Prove your point? Sure I can agree it'll be hard, but we did not become the leaders of the 13th century by having an easy life.
I illustrated how my experiences despite so many influences still failed to assimilate me as an Australia. Assimilated Mongols however, they are my speciality, I can turn them against Australian soil if I wanted to. My experiences have taught me much of why you can never be proud to call yourself Australian. If you are proud of your origins, if you fight for your ways no matter what, then it doesn't matter where the f--k you are. You are a shining beacon not a candle in a storm.
