Pan-Mongols and where they live

[NCA_D]

Higher res:
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q10/ ... ol21-1.jpg

[Rebel]

Impressive map. However Tuvans and Altaians are not mongolic but turkic group. Culturally they are much closer to us then rest of turkish speakers.+If hazaras are included in our group then kazakhs definietly should be with us.

If inner mongolia were ours then we would have warm and humid lands with good harvest. Wheat, rice, corn and almost all kinds of vegetables
If tuva and eastern xingjang were ours we would have several important mineral deposits, gas, and oil.
If buryatia were ours we would have tons of forest and lake Baikal. We can provide ourselves with fresh water.
+ 3-4 million priceless labour force.

[easterling]

Well we nearly lost Mongolia...if we didn't have Mongolia....then......

[Subuatai]

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if we do regain those lands back. In all lands outside of Mongolia, our people are a minority - thats a fact. Lets say for example, we regain inner Mongolia back through diplomacy/economics/whatever, but what are we going to do with the Chinese locals? Push them over the great wall? The population of Chinese in Inner Mongolia alone is twice the number of even all Mongols worldwide!

[sonid_zaluu]

The map isnt quite accurate though, and there are at least 2 flaws I can find.

1) Sunid has never been a part of Tsahar, us Sunid Mongols together with Avag and Uzemchin were under the same administration - Shilin Gol Aimag. And then the damn Chinese established their control over us, mapped and re-defined our terriotry at their own discretion. There used to be 9 different Aimags, now only 3 left.

2) Khovd Aimag is largely populated by ethnic Zahchin, and they are seperate from Khalah.

[sonid_zaluu]

Impressive map. However Tuvans and Altaians are not mongolic but turkic group. Culturally they are much closer to us then rest of turkish speakers.+If hazaras are included in our group then kazakhs definietly should be with us.

If inner mongolia were ours then we would have warm and humid lands with good harvest. Wheat, rice, corn and almost all kinds of vegetables
If tuva and eastern xingjang were ours we would have several important mineral deposits, gas, and oil.
If buryatia were ours we would have tons of forest and lake Baikal. We can provide ourselves with fresh water.
+ 3-4 million priceless labour force.

Hazaras are the descendants of Western Mongols who moved to Afghan under the command of Chinggis Khaan from what I understand, so technically they are Mongols. But I'm not sure the same can be said about Kazahks.

@ subo

Thats one of the many reasons why Panmongolism is said to be impossible, and putting aside the difficulty of banishing Han Chinese out, the Khorchin wouldn't be pleased with it either. Khorchin is a very large Mongol group, possibly the largest group in terms of population (see the territory highlighted in light-blue colour in Eastern Inner Mongolia). They have a tendency to routinely integrate with Chinese, and their attitude towards Chinese is much more companionable (much like the Manchus), because tracing back to their origin, they share the same ancestors with Manchus, Koreans and some Northern Han - they are the decendants of Jurchens.

btw, our lovely Suren is also a Khorchin, I'm convinced. Because I remeber her showing me this ancient Jurchen script which happened to be her grandmother's family name.

[Subuatai]

Yup, reality sure hurts. Manchus, Koreans, both sinofied. Yet Khorchin is still following their road too it seems

I did not wish to visit Hohhot due to the fact I did not wish to lose my happy holiday mood, but unfortunately it got spoiled anyway witnessing the sinofication of East Turkistan ne way. Bleh as much as my travels have taught me of the hospitality of Malaysian or Singaporean Chinese, my travels have also taught me firsthand of the ways of the Chinese Chinese people who I can't say can ever be friends with Mongols.

[Rebel]

Hazaras are the descendants of Western Mongols who moved to Afghan under the command of Chinggis Khaan from what I understand, so technically they are Mongols. But I'm not sure the same can be said about Kazahks.

@ subo

Thats one of the many reasons why Panmongolism is said to be impossible, and putting aside the difficulty of banishing Han Chinese out, the Khorchin wouldn't be pleased with it either. Khorchin is a very large Mongol group, possibly the largest group in terms of population (see the territory highlighted in light-blue colour in Eastern Inner Mongolia). They have a tendency to routinely integrate with Chinese, and their attitude towards Chinese is much more companionable (much like the Manchus), because tracing back to their origin, they share the same ancestors with Manchus, Koreans and some Northern Han - they are the decendants of Jurchens.

I know Hazaras are descendants of mongolians who settled afganistan and mixed with iranic ppl. Genetic markers prove it. However linguistically they are iranized. Kazakhs also descendants of mongolic people such as Khitan, Khereid, Naiman and subsequent groups mixed with local turkic people. Even their rulers were descendants of Chingis khan. In contrast to neighboring turkic groups such as kyrgyz, karakalpak, altai, shors, tuvans hakassians, uzbeks, uighurs and tatars their genetic markers differs drastically and closest to mongolians. Thus I regard Hazara and Kazakhs as genetically closest but lingustically distant group to mongolians.

Its very interesting to hear from you about khorchins. I've heard they are very sinized group. I found this video in utube. Seems you are right cause I cannot identify whether singer speaks in Monglian or chinese.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie-J0_4I ... annel_page

And how about Kharchins? Geographically they seem live even closer to chinese

[NCA_D]

btw, our lovely Suren is also a Khorchin, I'm convinced. Because I remeber her showing me this ancient Jurchen script which happened to be her grandmother's family name.

Who is Suren?

[sonid_zaluu]

Kharchin, Ar-Khorchin, Baarin, Darhan are all in the same boat.

Its very sad indeed, especially given that many of them are the direct descendants of the Borjigin, Taichuud and one of several Uriankhai clans (I forgot which one). These are all the founding tribes of Ikh Mongol Khaant Uls.

And closer linguistic tie doesn't make them Mongol either. We have Khoton, Zahchin, Tsaatan and several other tribes of turkic descent who merged into Mongol, that's enough!

Suren is one of several girlfriends of mine ^^

[NCA_D]

Haven't seen this one before. Looks good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9AKc4iLabg

[Subuatai]

You know I'm kinda tired of reading history written from our very enemies.

[UBold]

Don't try don't think don't expect don't even wish to get this regions back.
You know what happened to Germany before WW2 right?

[Subuatai]

It's not the land it's the people we should aim to protect. Hence Pan-Mongol - to bring awareness and understanding between the various ethnics of the Mongol race. Whether we become united as a political power is another story, what is most important now is that we do not forget that we are brothers and sisters under the eternal blue sky.

[fushion]

Yup, reality sure hurts. Manchus, Koreans, both sinofied. Yet Khorchin is still following their road too it seems

I did not wish to visit Hohhot due to the fact I did not wish to lose my happy holiday mood, but unfortunately it got spoiled anyway witnessing the sinofication of East Turkistan ne way. Bleh as much as my travels have taught me of the hospitality of Malaysian or Singaporean Chinese, my travels have also taught me firsthand of the ways of the Chinese Chinese people who I can't say can ever be friends with Mongols.

Khorchin will not be assimilated as Manju.

Khorchin Mongols are still speaking Mongolian. Yes, their dialect has already become incomprehensible for any Mongols from outside their region, as you can see in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie-J0_4I ... annel_page. And yes, their culture has already become a strange mixture of Mongolian culture and Chinese culture. It's sad seeing Hasar's descendants end up living a life like this.

But don't forget these are the very first Mongolian herdsmen who have to deal with massive Chinese immigration. The struggle of keeping the nomadic life style was crushed really fast, and they had to become farmers and stick together in villages.

I am pretty sure Khorchin Mongols will be the last one to lost their mother tongue in Inner Mongolia. Because farming lifestyle is easy to form small communities that have tight social bonds. I am not saying herdmen don't have tight social bonds, but it's just not tight enough for resist assimilation of such a large population like Chinese.

Sticking together makes it possible to resist assimilation, and that's the reason they are still speaking the language. But the farming culture and the fact of being surrounded by Chinese have made them very different from other Mongols. I got the impression that other Mongols in Inner Mongolia don't like them. It's understandable, but it's not right. Nobody was there to help them, they had to struggle for themselves in their ways, and others have no right to judge them.

If it's sad, it's not only sad for them, it's sad for all of the Mongols. Think about it.

[Subuatai]

Only thing that can prevent assimilation - and even cause DE-assimilation of our people (what happened with me) - is EDUCATION of our history. We have wrote only book compared to the thousands written by our very enemies. Yet there are some objective historians who have dedicated themselves to present the truth about our history and how this pathetic "barbarian" title is something to be proud of rather then to be a "sedentary savage" who genocided, destroyed and exterminated yet every people we conquered who were there before us, where there after us.

Education is key.

[alex_mun]

Yeah..Yeah..If you want to understand today, you have study your yesterday,.I guess.. History can educate people. Wrong history can execute nation. Don't read those freaking lies about our past written by our enemies. Learn Mongolian. We have some good books written by true Mongolian historians. Professor Otgonjargal /My professor and mother of MP in Mongolia/ often said that if you didn't know history, you didn't know anything. You were a leaf that didn't know it was part of a tree. You were a monkey that was born in a jungle. /Actually there is a Mongolian saying "If you don't know your history, you are monkey that get lost in its very own jungle". Same though. But my professor's analogy is more logical if you take closer look/
>>>>History is herstory<<<<

[Subuatai]

You know the Anglo-American colonists have successfully convinced the majority of the world how high and mighty they were to shamelessly genocide the Native American people. Through education, through media, through propaganda... a sword may kill one man, but a pen can change an entire generation. Same way how genocidists are considered civilised yet we are "barbarians" of history.

[sonid_zaluu]

@fushion

o_O~ I agree with you on how terrible they are at the language, and with their horrifying dialect they often put us Inner Mongols to shame by scaring off those Outer Mongols who visit Inner Mongolia lol. However, the fact that a handful of Chinese infiltrated into Khorchin is not enough to earn my sympathy either. Because they have made the choice to stay that way. Now, I know its agonizing to see fellow Mongols blindly following the trail to danger, but like I said, its the choice of their own, whether we like it or not.

By choice, they have given up on their own language, and their own culture. By choice, they have made themselves suburban farm peasants instead of lovely herdsmen. And as unforgiving as I am, I will not tolerate such flawed groups.

Btw, if you read immigration history, Tumed, Ordos and Tsahar were the first one to experience massive Chinese migration, but certainly not the Khorchins. The first and the main immigration flow comes from the Chinese Shanxi Province in the beginning of the last century. The people living in Shanxi suffered from a series of consecutive droughts from what I heard, so they were left with no choice but to cross their West Gate (Its a gate on the very western edge of the Wall, presumably served as a border town back then) and step into our endless grassland. From then on, they kept coming and came from every angle to the point we are now outnumbered by a ratio of 1:4. But overall, most Inner Mongols have stayed strong even though cultural survival is tough out here. The only exception to that however, is the Khorchin who preffered the newly arrived Chinese over us.

So, do you still believe the Khorchins will be the last one to lose their mother tonge? Wish I shared your faith though, but I don't advocate false hope, I only believe in what I see. And what I have seen is there is ongoing human-trafficing of women for prostitution from Outer Mongolia to Inner Mongolia and then to mainland China, and the culprits that are responsible for this are the two-faced Khorchins except you portray them as innocent victims. I know this because I lived in Erenhot for years, and as you know Erenhot is the border town but it also served as the recipient town for this forced labour.

Thus we cannot trust the Khorchins anymore. They are the same thieves and thugs they have been for the last 60 years, and that's only according to my grandparants. If ever, there is a need to conduct an internal purge, think we should consider about them!

[Subuatai]

Sonid, it makes me feel sad too, to know that I was the one who sparked the fires that now burns within you. Before, you thought Pan-Mongolism was unrealistic, but now you fight for unity even if it is unrealistic. You used to laugh everytime I posted who we are and who we should be, the nomadic culture that was passed down from generations and was taught to me. You agreed, but you laughed, but now you stand tall. I'm proud I could at least bring this much hope to my people.

Read the "Mongolian forum blah blah chink" page on further details...

[sonid_zaluu]

Lesson number one; You don't speak of hope, when you are growing a little love connection with China and their women yourself.

Secondly, I admit that I was in the habit of typing LOL, ROLF BLAH BLAH over the internet, but that doesn't mean I meant it. Unfortunately to me, laughing does not just mean a simple expression of having fun anymore. Sure you have seem me going "heiheihei hahahah", but what you missed is the part where I had tears of anger and sorrow in my eyes just behind the computer screen. You also missed the part where my eyeball turned red as the sky when sandstorms strike on the Gobi.

Heck, why else would I be laughing when most parts of our land are crying out for a rain? And after the annual summer drought, you have harsh brutal winters that would simply freeze herd animals and even our poor nomads to death. So why the hell in god's name would I laugh about that with joy? - Because deep down in my heart, I'm emotionally wounded.

One thing to laugh at, its another thing to cry for Subo, so if the fact that I laughed bothered you so much, then take my teardrop as apology.

Btw, I wasn't able to see the continuation of your fall from grace as the whole thread had been deleted already, so I'll leave it there.

[peacesteady]

* Yeah, I agree with you! All my Mongolian Brothers.
We are the Mongols.

Those facts are so sad!! What a unfortunate. All we can do is knowing ourselves, history, language, culture and custom of Mongolia! That's the immunity of us!
-Learn Mongolian, speak Mongolian
-Marry with Mongolians(each other). Avoid foreigners. Especially Chinese, Koreans and Japanese! I think, You know what's going on Mongolia.
I always regret marriage of Mongolians with foreigners!

I think, this online community is very useful! At least, we're connecting with each others.

[bilguun_kojp]

Impressive map. However Tuvans and Altaians are not mongolic but turkic group. Culturally they are much closer to us then rest of turkish speakers.+If hazaras are included in our group then kazakhs definietly should be with us.

If inner mongolia were ours then we would have warm and humid lands with good harvest. Wheat, rice, corn and almost all kinds of vegetables
If tuva and eastern xingjang were ours we would have several important mineral deposits, gas, and oil.
If buryatia were ours we would have tons of forest and lake Baikal. We can provide ourselves with fresh water.
+ 3-4 million priceless labour force.

unen shu hehe

[fushion]

@fushion

o_O~ I agree with you on how terrible they are at the language, and with their horrifying dialect they often put us Inner Mongols to shame by scaring off those Outer Mongols who visit Inner Mongolia lol.

It's a dialect. There are people using that language on a daily basis. If one is so easily horrified by a dialect, he might consider moving into a greenhouse and staying there for good.

However, the fact that a handful of Chinese infiltrated into Khorchin is not enough to earn my sympathy either. Because they have made the choice to stay that way. Now, I know its agonizing to see fellow Mongols blindly following the trail to danger, but like I said, its the choice of their own, whether we like it or not.

By choice, they have given up on their own language, and their own culture. By choice, they have made themselves suburban farm peasants instead of lovely herdsmen. And as unforgiving as I am, I will not tolerate such flawed groups.

They didn't give up on their own language. And people don't "give up" their culture, the way they live is their culture. No matter how you dislike it, it's a dialect of Mongolian, and these are Mongols who led a different path. "as unforgiving as I am, I will not tolerate such flawed groups." Well said. I hope this kind of thoughts makes your life much easier to bear.

Btw, if you read immigration history, Tumed, Ordos and Tsahar were the first one to experience massive Chinese migration, but certainly not the Khorchins. The first and the main immigration flow comes from the Chinese Shanxi Province in the beginning of the last century. The people living in Shanxi suffered from a series of consecutive droughts from what I heard, so they were left with no choice but to cross their West Gate (Its a gate on the very western edge of the Wall, presumably served as a border town back then) and step into our endless grassland. From then on, they kept coming and came from every angle to the point we are now outnumbered by a ratio of 1:4. But overall, most Inner Mongols have stayed strong even though cultural survival is tough out here. The only exception to that however, is the Khorchin who preffered the newly arrived Chinese over us.

"A handful of Chinese". And you tell me to read immigration history.
"They have made the choice"? It wasn't a choice, it was a mean to survive.

So, do you still believe the Khorchins will be the last one to lose their mother tonge? Wish I shared your faith though, but I don't advocate false hope, I only believe in what I see. And what I have seen is there is ongoing human-trafficing of women for prostitution from Outer Mongolia to Inner Mongolia and then to mainland China, and the culprits that are responsible for this are the two-faced Khorchins except you portray them as innocent victims. I know this because I lived in Erenhot for years, and as you know Erenhot is the border town but it also served as the recipient town for this forced labour.

Oh yeah. A couple of pimps turn the whole group into two-faced culprits. Flawless logic!

Thus we cannot trust the Khorchins anymore. They are the same thieves and thugs they have been for the last 60 years, and that's only according to my grandparants. If ever, there is a need to conduct an internal purge, think we should consider about them!

You should be able to form your own thoughts. Speak for yourself, please. YOU are narrow-minded not because of what your grandparents told you, but because you took every word they said without examining them in a context.

And good luck with your "Internal purge" plan. Time to update your primitive mindset, my dear cave man.

[JACOOL]

bbb

[hicheel]

Impressive map. However Tuvans and Altaians are not mongolic but turkic group. Culturally they are much closer to us then rest of turkish speakers.+If hazaras are included in our group then kazakhs definietly should be with us.

If inner mongolia were ours then we would have warm and humid lands with good harvest. Wheat, rice, corn and almost all kinds of vegetables
If tuva and eastern xingjang were ours we would have several important mineral deposits, gas, and oil.
If buryatia were ours we would have tons of forest and lake Baikal. We can provide ourselves with fresh water.
+ 3-4 million priceless labour force.

turks were originally our brothers